Inayan Dequerdas

[michaeljb]

Michael may correct me if I'm wrong, but GM Tenio was not a proponent of inverting (tip down) the weapon.

I'd concur with that statement. But then I'd add that he also did whatever was needed that was simple, direct and effective.

[michaeljb]

...If I were asked by a prospective or new student to explain very briefly the difference between Dequerdas and Serrada, I would probably answer initially that Serrada is for the combat use of a lighter, shorter sword like a Pinuti. Dequerdas is for the use of a heavier, longer Bolo than would be used for Serrada. I might add for interest that Larga Mano is for the use of the even heavier and longer sword, but that is another topic. The length and weight of the blade used for the style has much to do with the techniques used for the style when training with Bastons. ...

I can see the logic behind this. In our system (at least how I teach it), although the type of weapon one wields will affect one's movment, we focus primarily on the movement of the particular style over the type of weapon...sort of. For example, a longer, heavier weapon is optimal for a Largo Mano style but I can pull from the principles of that style and successfully use a lighter, shorter weapon. A perfect, exact translation? No. But the use of the style is easily recognizable.

When I am asked to explain the difference between the three main styles of my system (Serrada, Larga Mano, DeCuerdas) I will tell them that, in a "bare bones" comparison, Serrada has a strong emphasis on abaniko hits, Largo Mano has a strong emphasis on figure-8's and DeCuerdas has a strong emphasis on vertical strikes. Serrada footwork is more linear compared to DeCuerdas although both tend to be rooted styles while Larga Mano uses more angular footwork and is more mobile/evasive.

[Ronin]

I split the thread here regarding Kadena de Mano working or not.

Find that thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1872

[BirdieKing]

I'm dragging this over from the Inayan on YouTube thread as this is a more relevant thread so you can jump over there for a better idea of the context.

It's not that it works for him. It simply works. If it does not work for you that's too bad. I myself have trouble putting "english" on my cue while playing billiards (but i do know it is possible) so i can certainly relate. I guess i need more practice.

If you’re talking about the concept of putting the weapon in front of the attack then I'll agree that that works to deflect most blows. The body mechanics of the instructors in the video are throwing basic strikes 1-8 which are intended to be strikes across the body so that is what I would expect the counters to stop, if your saying the block will stop the strike. Jabs and Abiniko strikes are different.

All I'm getting at is the natural motions and physics of a good strike should not be stopped by just the weapon to weapon contact, it will in almost every case bounce off and/or through with the arm making arm based counters extremely difficult.

I've seen many people, many times put english on a ball in a game it's effective, so I know it works. Different story for seeing a stick and arm stopped by a weapon to weapon block in a sparring match or fight, arm based followups even less.

[michaeljb]

I'm dragging this over from the Inayan on YouTube thread as this is a more relevant thread so you can jump over there for a better idea of the context.

It's not that it works for him. It simply works. If it does not work for you that's too bad. I myself have trouble putting "english" on my cue while playing billiards (but i do know it is possible) so i can certainly relate. I guess i need more practice.

If you’re talking about the concept of putting the weapon in front of the attack then I'll agree that that works to deflect most blows. The body mechanics of the instructors in the video are throwing basic strikes 1-8 which are intended to be strikes across the body so that is what I would expect the counters to stop, if your saying the block will stop the strike. Jabs and Abiniko strikes are different.

All I'm getting at is the natural motions and physics of a good strike should not be stopped by just the weapon to weapon contact, it will in almost every case bounce off and/or through with the arm making arm based counters extremely difficult.

I've seen many people, many times put english on a ball in a game it's effective, so I know it works. Different story for seeing a stick and arm stopped by a weapon to weapon block in a sparring match or fight, arm based followups even less.

You're (still) correct IMO from the other thread. I'll repeat that I think the big issue is between training to develop attributes vs. training how to defend oneself in an actual encounter. Your responses appear to focus on the latter while the drill focuses more on the former. From my POV, which is influenced by Tenio DeCuerdas and not Inayan Dequerdas, the base movements performed in the drill can work quite well. Just need to get out of the safe "practice mode" and make slight adjustments for attack intensity, defense and counter-attack targets.

[Ronin]

I've seen many people, many times put english on a ball in a game it's effective, so I know it works. Different story for seeing a stick and arm stopped by a weapon to weapon block in a sparring match or fight, arm based followups even less.

There is probably no convincing that could be done text or even video wise. Things like this must be experienced. If your ever in TN - please stop by and i will be glad to have one of my students that is equal to whatever level you are currently at convince you. If nothing else - someone will certainly learn something about something as they say.

[BirdieKing]

Thank you for the invite, I will have to try and take you up on that. If you guys can show me where I'm talking crazy then more better

Anyone know how easy a drive it is to your area from Ashville, NC? Google maps says its under 2 hours, I'm guessing it depends on the time of day.

[Rob]

it is a very easy 2 hr drive stright up I-40.

[BirdieKing]

Thank you Rob!

I'm a little confused about this thread and the whole - it just works- thing. Are you saying that the drill and how it builds attributes just work, or (what it looks like to me) that you can either stop a strike cold or let it go through depending on how you do your "Dequerdas"?

Btw it's hard enough to stop a full blown strike cold but doing so with only a stick on stick block and a check hand reinforced stick seems highly unlikely to me.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the threads before mine, if so nevermnd

I think you're pretty much right on my point, when I was watching the Dequerdas video I noticed that the strike was going through then being stopped with essentially the same technique. My question was more about could those strikes stop a hard strike like almost all the techniques in the rest of the video demonstrate.

[Eagle556]

A few years ago I did a few experiments on Dequerdas type blocking and also on what happens when trying to apply Serrada type blocking to various scenarios. Here's a few explanations of the types of tests that were done, although the post will not contain an explanation of all the tests and also a few comments on what happened. We did attempt to do some testing with both weapons being held by individuals but for safety sake we did a lot of the testing with one weapon being held ina vise and the other weapon being swung by an individual.

Stick to stick - First stick was stuck vertically in a vise. Then we began to hit the stick concentrating on what the results were when contact was made at various points on both sticks. Some of the results included the fact that the attacking stick often did not simply bounce off or for that matter flow past the defending stick. This was particuarly true when contact was made on both sticks in the middle of each stick. And also true the heavier the attacking stick.

Then we progressed to more common instruments found here in America in the hands of attackers. These included baseball bats, 2x4s, and tire irons. The heavier the weapon, the less chance of the attacking weapon flowing or being redirected past the defender. Then we had some real fun and moved to bladed weapons.

Blade to stick - Stick was stuck vertically in a vise. Suffice to say when the blade makes contact with the stick it tends to become imbedded in the stick. The harder the blade strike the deeper the penetration on the stick causing both participants to now worry about how to disengage their stuck weapons advantageously. Then to test what could happen to the supporting hand we filled a glove with shot and then affixed the glove to the stick (No one volunteered to hold the stick while being attacked by me with the blade although a few brave souls did hold the stick in stick to stick experiments. We picked up quite a bit of shot off of the floor due to the blade cutting the supporting hand. We also went through a lot of gloves in the bladed experiments. We tried numerous hand positions but basically all had the same results.

Blade to blade - One blade affixed to the vise. When a blade makes contact with another blade they tend to bite into one another. Again now each participant has to worry about how to disengage the weapons. Using the defending blade in a variety of positions, i.e. turning the defending blade to one side or another so that various portions of the flat of the blade makes contact with attacking blade produced the predictable results of, the flatter the blade position the more shot we picked up off of the floor and the more gloves we needed.

Was this a scientific experiment, heck no. I did it to illustrate to a few students at the time what happens when you attempt certain moves with certain weapons, especially actual bladed ones. I have run into many individuals over the years who profess to teach or practice a bladed system while never actually attempting to see what a blade may do as opposed to a piece of rattan.

I have also been known to, at times, hit my students somewhat hard with rattan or hardwood. My belief in that, formed many years ago thanks to Mike Inay, was that if you can't stop a piece of rattan or hardwood in class what makes you think that you will stop a baseball bat, 2x4, or tire iron on the street? I have also been known to advocate, rather strongly, the use of live blades in various class scenarios. Same belief, if you can't handle a live blade in a class scenario, whatever in the world makes you think you will be able to deal with it in the street? If you are an instructor ask yourselves what I always ask myself, am I helping my student or simply setting them up for failure with my training methodology?

Take care, Rob

[patrickdpr]

I love the scientific approach. I have to say, without a doubt, that a stick in a vise is DRASTICALLY different than a stick in a hand. I would guess it had exponentially more stopping power, in fact... but that is just a guess.

[michaeljb]

I love the scientific approach. I have to say, without a doubt, that a stick in a vise is DRASTICALLY different than a stick in a hand. I would guess it had exponentially more stopping power, in fact... but that is just a guess.

While I appreciate anyone willing to test out <anything> as best they can, a stick in a vise is vastly different than one in the hand. There is motion and power generation when one swings a stick, whether defensively or offensively, that is not conveyed in a static hold and the reaction of each weapon on impact can be different as a result. Unless the individual is ridiculously strong, I will plow over someone who just holds their weapon up defensively without intent, power, footwork, something.

I have also been known to, at times, hit my students somewhat hard with rattan or hardwood. My belief in that, formed many years ago thanks to Mike Inay, was that if you can't stop a piece of rattan or hardwood in class what makes you think that you will stop a baseball bat, 2x4, or tire iron on the street? I have also been known to advocate, rather strongly, the use of live blades in various class scenarios. Same belief, if you can't handle a live blade in a class scenario, whatever in the world makes you think you will be able to deal with it in the street? If you are an instructor ask yourselves what I always ask myself, am I helping my student or simply setting them up for failure with my training methodology?

Cool. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only "crazy" instructor swinging live blades or going full blow with a bahi stick at students. My newest "trainer" is a live, 2lb, 29 inch straight machete. Damn thing won't stop once it gets started! None of my guys are looking forward to that one

[Eagle556]

I love the scientific approach. I have to say, without a doubt, that a stick in a vise is DRASTICALLY different than a stick in a hand. I would guess it had exponentially more stopping power, in fact... but that is just a guess.

While I appreciate anyone willing to test out <anything> as best they can, a stick in a vise is vastly different than one in the hand. There is motion and power generation when one swings a stick, whether defensively or offensively, that is not conveyed in a static hold and the reaction of each weapon on impact can be different as a result. Unless the individual is ridiculously strong, I will plow over someone who just holds their weapon up defensively without intent, power, footwork, something.

You're right, a vise is different than a live individual. However one of the advantages of the vise is that varying pressure can be applied to the vise's gripping ability. One of the other tests was to observe various hand placements on the supporting hand and what happens for example to fingers when the stick gives way and the fingers on the supporting hand are placed in such a way that as the stick moves backwards the fingers, because of how they are placed, move in front of the stick towards the opponent. Various results of this were anything from potential broken fingers to cut off fingers. I've always tried to test, as best as possible, what I have been told and what I have practiced. I've also had any number of interesting conversations with individuals over the years concerning what their particular practices are or what they have been told or led to believe. For example over the years a number of individuals have related to me that their 28" small diameter stick really represented a kampilan. I've found the best way to show them that there is a vast difference between the two is to either a, hand them one of my actual kampilans or b, hand them one of my aluminum versions of the kamplilan and then have them compare the stick and either one or both of the implements that I have just handed them. I enjoy seeing the light pop on when they realize the differences and start to understand that some of the stuff they do with the stick isn't really applicable to the blade. One of the advantages to having a brother in the surplus business was that I was able to obtain a number of 1/4" sheets of aluminum and make training aids off of the actual blades. Are they the same as the actual blades, no, but they come a heck of a lot closer than sticks, particularly when you are dealing with heavier weapons.

I've also tried to work with any number of individuals throughout the years. Unfortunately my limited time with Gilbert Tenio was spent on knife defenses. Same thing as Leo Giron, every time that I spent time with him it was solely on Larga Mano and nothing else. To tell you the truth during all of the times that I spent with him I really never realized that his system was comprised of a number of individual styles. I thought that he was basically a Larga Mano man. My bad, I missed out on things.

Take care, Rob

[Scaevus]

I have also been known to, at times, hit my students somewhat hard with rattan or hardwood. My belief in that, formed many years ago thanks to Mike Inay, was that if you can't stop a piece of rattan or hardwood in class what makes you think that you will stop a baseball bat, 2x4, or tire iron on the street? I have also been known to advocate, rather strongly, the use of live blades in various class scenarios. Same belief, if you can't handle a live blade in a class scenario, whatever in the world makes you think you will be able to deal with it in the street? If you are an instructor ask yourselves what I always ask myself, am I helping my student or simply setting them up for failure with my training methodology?

Cool. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only "crazy" instructor swinging live blades or going full blow with a bahi stick at students. My newest "trainer" is a live, 2lb, 29 inch straight machete. Damn thing won't stop once it gets started! None of my guys are looking forward to that one

Naw, Michael, you're not the only crazy one here...being a long-time student of Guro McDonald, I've been told by many visitors to our classes from other FMA's as well as other martial arts, they think that we're a little twisted, especially when the live blades come out, or they observe the welts we regularly carry from lock and block practice.. Such is life, though....

Kim

[michaeljb]

Kim: Oh yeah, twisted is good. Keeps others on their toes whenever you're around them